Saturday, May 2, 2009

"Contemplating the Quran" OR "The house that hate built"

With all of the criticism Islam extremists are facing you might think that another diatribe about their evils isn't necessary. I contend that they haven't faced enough and that there is nothing MORE necessary in our political climate than one honest examination of Islam "extremism".

In the current political climate of religious safety from criticism it is practically impossible to protect ourselves from extremists in the world. This is because we are finding fault with all the wrong things. We look at the world trade centre bombing and say that the suicide bombers were clearly insane. We look at mothers and children who hate Jews dogmatically and say that it is a lack of education. We see women being treated as chattel and subservient as they are killed and abused for the "honour" of their families and excuse it as being cultural. We hear about hatred of the western world and determine that comes from poverty and war. What we DON'T hear about is criticism of the belief that was the impetus for those acts.
These people aren't insane, they are faithful. They aren't undereducated; they are educated with the hate in the Quran. They aren't honouring their families because of culture; they are blindly killing for Allah. They aren't victims; they are merely obedient and faithful in their belief in absolute terms of their divine mission to submit the world to Islam.

The fact is these people are no more insane, no more undereducated, no more underprivileged and no more bound by culture to do evil than we are. What they are bound to is a fundamentalist and immoral dogma that is held as unassailable by our sensibilities and our media. Well, the pass on critique stops here.

No more will we judge individuals as the problem for the edicts of a faith that drives them to evils by pain of eternal damnation. Here we will face Islam head on and discuss why some Muslims do the things that they do. If faced with the threat of eternal punishment and indoctrinated into a mindset that tells us fighting for the precepts in the Quran are the only absolute morality, who wouldn't do the terrible things that some extremists do? (Especially when you are convinced by divine revelation that these things are not terrible but, in fact, righteous)

"Wait", I can hear readers saying, "isn't Islam a religion of peace?"
The answer is no it is not. It is no more a religion of peace than is Christianity. Just as the bible orders to kill atheists, sassy children, wearers of muti-fabric clothing, people of poor attention spans in church, babies of apostates, and those who don't believe as you do, the Quran has its own set of rules for killing. The difference is that those rules are adhered to by fundamentalist with a fervour for literal dogma that is hard to find in other religions.

Still not convinced? Let's take a look at some of the mandates that the Quran instructs Muslims originate from a higher and absolute morality.

The Quran on tolerance

Disbelievers will be burned with fire.- 2:39, 2:90

We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them. -2:99

Slay them wherever ye find them -2:191

The strange admonishment of homosexual behaviour is that it only seems to mind when MEN do it. It is very clear in defining that it is male homosexuality that is the abomination. (26:165-6, 27:54-55, 29:28-29)
This would seem to suggest that Allah hates gays, but he thinks that lesbians are the shit. I guess he was thinking ahead when making the male dominated culture of Muslims. If men are going to rule, then they are going to need a good source of entertainment (They would also need sole dominion over the remote, but they don't seem to touch on that in the Quran OR the Haddiths. Slight oversight sorry Allah)

The list of dooms, and admonishments towards non believers (who are Christians, Jews and Atheists) is so extensive that I won't bore you with it, but you get the point. It is certainly not a tenet of Islam to tolerate the presence of those who believe differently than they do. Even in the Haddiths, Muhammad was only tolerant of Jews until they rejected his teachings, and thus begins the paving of a long road of Muslim hatred of the Jews.

So they haven't scored high marks on tolerance, but does that differentiate them from other religions when each of them thinks that they are the sole path to salvation? Maybe not, lets go on...

The Quran on maturity... (or "What is Allah, like 5??")

Allah mocks the unbelievers 2:15

Those in the fire will be taunted by those in the Garden 7:44

Wretched is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. 62:5

There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48

Seriously?!? In this we see that Allah might actually be a celestial 5 year old, mocking and taunting those people who do not offer him validation. Very difficult to take a god seriously who looks down on people who don't worship him and instead of offering wisdom to convert or elucidate them, he only offers comments like "You're UGLY!" (62:5) or "You're STUPID!!" (2:15), or "Hot enough for ya, IN HELL?" (7:44) and my personal favourite "you want help? NOPE! Too late, hahaha" (2:48). All of this is aside from the childish and ubiquitous "Oh, that is a very interesting and opposing opinion you have there. (to followers) -KILL HIM!!! OR you can hold off on killing him and I will torture him later in hell (while I mock him), your choice."
Where are his parents anyway? I remember having to teach my 4 year old not to talk to people like that but I guess when you are a Deity there is no need for politeness of maturity (as you kill or order killed everyone who doesn't agree).
After we look at his views of women too we might say that his hatred comes from a bit of an Oedipus Complex, but I digress.

Which brings us to;

The Quran on women...

Menstruation is a sickness (2:222)

Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are "a degree above them." (2:228)

Males are to inherit twice that of females. (4:11)

You may not forcibly inherit women, unless they flagrantly lewd. (4:19)
(you can rape women if they are lewd??? SO, this means that you can be even lewder, more base and violent if they are a bit crass. Is this why the large immigration to Britain and America? Large groups of women who are crass because they are not Islamic, and therefor available for Allah given happy fun time? )

You don't have to be modest around your wives or your slave girls "that your right hand possess." (23:6) (note the acceptance of slaves)

Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. (4:98)

Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women (4:34)

Lot offers his daughters to a mob of angel rapers. (15:71)-Meh they are property anyway.

Allah's rules for divorcing wives that have not yet reached puberty. (65:4) (note that Allah doesn't mind marrying girls younger than 12)

Finally and most important- As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them (4:34)

Misogyny is the second most pervasive attitude in Islam (after violence and Anti Semitism) and it is what keeps Muslim women from understanding their own oppression. Apostasy is punishable by death, and Allah commands that they be subservient. They are brainwashed into accepting their own oppression and servitude. It is a sad, sad state that speaks against the strength of Muslim men who believe it. Only a weak, insecure and sad man feels the need to be master of a woman and only a weak and immoral man would lay a hand on a woman, especially one he is supposed to love.

To me this is the most telling attitude amongst Muslims. It speaks for itself. Muslim men can't abide "their" women dressing as they wish, because chaos would ensue from poor weak minded men giving into a biological and divine imperative to rape them. (4:19)

I know that this is going long, but there is SO much to talk about. One more?

The Quran on Anti-Semitic hate

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. (2:96)

For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. (4:160-1)

Allah will punish the disbelieving Jews until the Day of Resurrection. (7:167)

Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. (9:34)

These sentiments are augmented by the Haddiths when they reject Muhammad's teachings and the anti-semitic sentiment continues unabated even today in countries all over the world. In its search for dominion over the minds of the world, Islam stands alone as the religion who seeks to take away our freedoms and our ability to speak and believe as we choose. 60 nations currently have given into the UNs weak Anti blasphemy resolution (although 56 of them are from the Islamic council). This is a clear and present danger to our freedoms and our wellbeing if we can't criticise the root evil of some of the most terrible issues of our times. That being unreasoning faith in an evil and immoral book.

In my readings of the Quran I have discovered only this. Allah is a weak, Oedipus complex suffering, childish, insecure, intolerant, anti-semitic, violent and unforgiving deity and we would do best to recognize that when making excuses for those who do harm in society. Lets recognize the real reason that there is Islamic terror and violence in the world. It is not the poverty, it is not the level of education, it is not the culture (although the culture is driven by the religion) it is the strident and unquestionable faith in a book that holds no wisdom for any save themselves. For all others there is death, doom and hellfire. For those who fight and die for Islam, there are rewards in the afterlife of wide eyed women and honour for the families left behind. (Remember the women who die in service of the Quran? They must get wide eyed women too, as we know what Allah thinks about lesbians.)

I will leave you by borrowing a sentiment from Richard Dawkins. When examining the evils of the world, lets place the blame where it belongs, and "lets not forget the elephant in the room, and elephant called religion" or in this case, Islam.



  1. I havent finished reading your entire post but since you consider yourself aware of whats happening in the world and knowledgable on the religion of islam to compile a lenthy blog dedicated to your point of view i thought i would point out a common misconception in your writing which i believe is a direct cause of unwritten history , western media and propaganda on the mass population , you included.

    First off i will adress the rest of your post but i will begin with this simple statement of yours>>

    "Mothers and children who hate jews dogmatically"

    I wont say thats not true for the most part but did you ever think and consider why muslims hate jews in these modern times?

    You remember when muslims ruled spain for nearly 700 years and had the largest kingdom in human history , larger than that of the ceasars of rome?

    I hope you do because this is a very important point which people love to ignore.

    The muslims during that time at Al Andalus in spain ruled over christians and jews , allowing both to practice religion alongside muslims under one roof.

    That was the intial rulers way , and i wont deny that during those 700 years power shifted to less mercifull leaders who stopped this practice and ordered each to practice their faith in seperate houses of worship.

    Anyways , this brings me to my point.

    I will also not deny that the Quran does refer to jews as evil people but it does not order muslims to kill anyone.
    The only situation a muslim is allowed to kill another human is during war.
    Crime related execution is different issue.

    But I will stress that the only reason muslims were able to over power the world technologically and by military is due to the fact that they followed true teachings of islam , being direct descendants of the prophet and knowing what he meant and what he wanted muslims to be like when he spread his message.

    Now my question is , why do you think muslims today hate jews?

    Isnt it because the jews who were hated in europe for certain actions they have commited which i will discuss here and kicked out of every country eventually dropped onto muslim territory by the british?

    And you dont expect the muslims to hate the jews?

    Did muslims hate jews before they started buying land in palestine?
    Did you ever hear of muslims throwing rocks at jews before they started evacuating palestinians from their own lands?
    Did you ever hear of a muslim killing a jew before they started bombing palestinian homelands?
    Did you ever hear of a muslim publically saying i hate jews before they started setting up jewish outpost at the outskirts of palestinian towns?
    Did you ever hear of a muslim blowing up himself in the name of god before they started sniping palestinian children and pregnant mothers from those outpost towers?

    The answer is no.

    Unwritten history is the direct effect of the western peoples oblivious state of mind in regard to the struggle of the muslims.

    Powerfull propaganda and effective media is the war the west are playing today.

    Americans list Libya as a harborour of terrorism due to the fact that mu'amr Ghadafi (Ruler of Libya) expresses hatred towards the americans.

    The man has been accused of supporting freedom fighters and had 2 death attempts on his life by americans.
    Both involving plane bombardments which he escaped.

    And people wonder why he hates americans.

    Back to my original point.

    It was not the muslims who killed jews in spain during that era but the crusaders under queen whatsherface who forced the people to either convert to christianity or get deported and those who were found hiding mainly consisting of muslims and jews were executed publically to set an example to others.

    So , please before you go ranting about muslims inherent hate towards jews , at least take the time to understand history , cause and effect.

    Its pathetic how people are ready to write on a subject they know so little about

  2. If muslims hate jews dogmatically why did they not erase every single jew when they were the most powerfull force on earth?

    The answer for this question is muslims dont hate jews as you like to believe.

    The writings in the Quran are not old pieces of writing dedicated to old people but a book of times destined to adress humanity till the day of jugdement.

    God knows how history will play out and has described the jews as evil people and guess what?

    The jews did turn out to be evil people.

    A people persecuted for generations and claim a genocide on the hands of the nazis now in power and backed by the most powerfull nation on earth is comitting a genocide on the people of palestine.

    Isnt the Quran right in describing the jews as evil?

    I think god was right.

    The Quran till today is not fully understood by even the most notable scholars of islam.

    Back in early times muslims knew of jewish traitors and their evil actions towards early prphets but did not consider them as evil people inherently and they let bygones be bygones but as history played out and the jews showed their true face muslims came to realise why god has described the jews so viciously in his book. The Quran.

  3. What you noted that women inherit less than men, is just part of the truth, and not the whole truth.

    In Islam, there are three other cases regarding inheritance:

    1. Women inherit as much as men.

    2. Women inherit more than men.

    3. Women inherit while men don't.

    The variables that control values of inheritances are:

    1. Closeness to the deceased.

    2. Responsibility of the inheriting generation, which means that the young generations inherit more than the older ones because they are facing more responsibilities, and are obliged to look after the older ones..

    Now, let's have some examples for the above-mentioned cases.

    Women Inherit As Much As Men:

    If a person dies leaving the two parents and even one child, each of the two parents inherits a sixth of the inheritance; the Qur'an rules that:

    *{For parents, a sixth share of inheritance to each if the deceased left children.}* (An-Nisaa' 4:11)

    Also, the brothers and sisters of the deceased from the same mother all inherit equal portions.

    Women Inherit More Than Men:

    If a person dies leaving one full sister and three half-brothers (by the father), the full sister gets half the inheritance, and the other half is distributed equally among the three half-brothers.
    to be continued..

  4. Most important is this deeper understanding on the way muslims live and why muslim women in a normal situation inherent half. Ie: brother inherents double that of a sister.

    A Case Study

    As for the first case, when women inherit less than men, it may sound unfair to you, but let me explain the responsibility of men and women in Islam through the following example.

    If a person dies leaving 150,000 dollars and a son and a daughter, the son gets 100,000 and the daughter only 50,000. There are two scenarios that may happen after this inheritance is distributed.

    One is that both of them may get married. In Islam, the man pays the bridal money or dower gift to the bride. So the son will spend about 25,000 and the daughter will receive the same amount. Now both of them have 75,000.

    Then after marriage the husband is responsible for the household expenses, while the wife keeps her money.

    The husband is solely responsible for everything, while the wife is not required to pay a single penny. However, if she decides to help her husband, this will be considered as an act of charity.

    The second scenario is that they don't get married, or the son marries and the daughter does not. Even if the daughter in the above example remains unmarried, her brother is obligated by Islam to be financially responsible for her.

    If the woman is not married, still her male relatives have the responsibility to spend on her. If she is a mother, it is her son's responsibility; if she is a daughter, it is her father's responsibility; if she is a sister, it is her brother's responsibility.

    Even if she has no male relatives, according to Islamic teachings, the society as a whole has the responsibility to provide for such a woman.

    Islam is about perfect justice for both the man and the woman. If the son and the daughter get equal shares, this will be really unjust to the son.

  5. But then you wrote

    And women have rights that are similar to men but men are a degree above them {2:228}

    well here you go

    *{And they [the women] have [rights] like [the obligations] they are under with beneficence, and men have a degree above them, and Allah is Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise}* (Al-Baqarah 2:228).

    Careful reading of the verse in Arabic, and in the context of other verses, does not imply inequality. Rather, *{And they [the women] have [rights] like [the obligations] they are under with beneficence}* , as well as other verses, emphasizes the equality of man and woman in rights and obligations, in nature and mental characteristics, in responsibility and accountability towards Allah and His Message. For example, the Qur’an says what means:

    *{Then their Lord responded to them, “I do not waste the deed of any doer among you, any male or female. The one of you is as the other}* (Aal `Imran 3:195).

    *{Surely the male donors and the female donors and [those] who lend to Allah a fair loan, it will be doubled for them, and they will have an honorable reward}* (Al-Hadid 57:18).

    *{Surely [for] male Muslims and female Muslims, and male believers and female believers, and devout males and devout females and sincere males and sincere females, and patient males and patient females, and submissive males and submissive females, and male donators and female donators, and fasting males and fasting females, and males who preserve their private parts and females who preserve their private parts, and males who are much mindful of Allah and females who are much mindful of Allah – for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a magnificent reward.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 35)

    We should understand that equality is something different from sameness. Actually it is the latter that the feminist movement nowadays call for, while Islam and sound intellect totally reject it. Men and women are different emotionally as well as in physical characteristics and endurance. Hence they were naturally created for two different, but complementary, functions and roles. This has been demonstrated by the variance of roles of men and women in all ages, civilizations, and cultures. The long history of humanity did not witness women prophets. It would be absurd to ascribe this to male self-imposed supremacy or coercion. Rather one should ask: Why did Allah exclusively send His messages through men, unless this is His will and the norms of His creation.

  6. The emotional character of women, their motherly instinct, and their basically tender, compassionate nature qualify them for their vital roles as careful mothers, affectionate wives, daughters, and sisters. Such roles are essential to form happy households, to raise healthy generations, and to create a closely-knit society.

    Equally, men bear the major responsibility of earning for a living, harnessing and developing the resources of the earth, facing life hardships, and defending his family and the community against dangers. A man is responsible to financially support his wife (even if she is rich), his daughters until they are married, his sons until they are able to support themselves, his needy parents, as well as other blood relatives. To fulfill these major responsibilities, he should assume the role of leadership, and this is what is meant by “a degree above them.” Thus, leadership does not thus imply any sort of inequality or dictatorship. In any egalitarian association between two or more persons, whether a family or a business or other human activity group, one should have the final word. The alternative is chaos or disruption of the association, sooner or later.

    All this does not exclude exceptions—rather than the general norms—of women excelling in various trades and professions or having to bear the major responsibility of their households. In another verse, the Qur’an clearly sets the leading role of men to be conditional on their capability to carry the responsibility of care and support. The Qur’an says what means:

    *{Men are the ever upright [managers] [of the affairs] of women for what Allah has graced some of them over [some] others and for what they have expended of their riches}* (An-Nisaa’ 4:34).

    May Allah bless you and guides us all to the truth.

  7. Then comes

    "Menstruation is a sickness" 2:222

    as you stated

    So to clarify your misconception i present you with what muslim scholars have to say on this topic..

    *{And [as for] the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His messenger; [as for] these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
    Allah has promised to the believing men and the believing women gardens, beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetual abode; and best of all is Allah's goodly pleasure; that is the grand achievement.}*

    Also, there are many other verses, which establish equity between men and women. This is either in their rights and responsibilities in society or in God's stand towards them, in this life and in the Hereafter.

    Prophet Muhammad also said:

    "Women are the counterparts of men."

    The true meaning of the hadith (saying) of the prophet of Islam, which your friend – unknowingly - misinterpreted, yet simply gave the wrong interpretation by the enemies of Islam, is as follows:

    Women, in certain times of their lives, are asked to observe less religious duties than men for the recurrent biological set of symptoms that occur to them; like times of labor and menstrual bleedings. Out of God’s mercy, He exempted women from observing some religious duties like fasting and praying. These are performed in Islam through movements of the body that may not fit their health - during these times.

    Yet, this exemption does not suggest that women have become, because of it, less religious, spiritually or mentally more deficient than men. Let us give the issue some logic please. Is it possible that the prophet's uncle – for example - who died a pagan polytheist and who gave Islam its hardest time, since the call started, by torturing early Muslims, is to be regarded as more intelligent and religious than numerous pious Muslim women? An example is Lady Khadija, the prophet's wife who endured severe agony and pain, for the sake of God and the new religion.

    Would that be fair, just because he is a man and she is a woman? Can anyone claim, by any means, that God would regard Virgin Mary a second class human being if compared to king Herodus?! Also, can anyone argue that those women who "willingly" choose to meet martyrdom in Palestine, for the sake of liberty and dignity, suffer a lack in religion?

    This question of intelligence and piety is much deeper than being a shallow matter of gender and sexuality.

    As for the case of testimony, it is true that in some legal cases, the woman’s testimony differs than that of man. This is especially when the penalty might reach the extent of taking the life of the defendant; "capital punishment". Here, it becomes necessary to take all procedures to guarantee the flawlessness of the mood and state of mind of all the witnesses.

    It is a scientific fact, that at some stages of their lives, women suffer from psychological stress – due to biological mechanisms - which makes them lack ability to concentrate. This can by no means indicate lack of mind or intelligence! This takes place namely during menstrual and post labor periods, along with the hormonal disturbances of menopause.

    These are scientific facts that are as clear as daylight and no woman can deny… Neither can any woman deny it, in favor of any kind of ideology nor philosophy! Woman admit to suffer from psychological restlessness, bad mood, in addition to tendency to forget easily, during these times.

    Yet, they have never considered it a discredit to their personality or a deficiency that they should be hiding! It is true that they avoid making important decisions during these times. Yet, they are not ashamed of these symptoms, simply because they are signs of femininity and maternity, such aspects that women should be extremely proud of…

  8. In Islam, women are entrusted to participate in all fields of life, including decision-making positions. On the other hand, when it comes to judicial matters and fatal decisions are taken concerning the lives of people and their properties, all possible probabilities and expectations regarding the witnesses should be taken into consideration. This includes even their mood and state of mind.

    You need to know that justice in Islam is a priority. Also, preserving human souls and rights is an ultimate value. These are prior to any other consideration, like simply pleasing women by denying their health conditions, which sometimes make them open to forgetfulness. This is why God decreed that in major cases two women are needed to give testimony instead of one.

    This is clearly stated, in Surah 2, verse 282, where God establishes the rule for recording debts:

    *{O you who believe! When you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of [his duty to] Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or [if] he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it [whether it is] small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest [way] that you may not entertain doubts [afterwards], except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do [it] then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of [your duty] to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.}*

    In fact, such judicial precautions concerning witnesses are not confined to women alone, but to some men as well. A man witness should also meet many requirements. Otherwise, his testimony is not accepted.

    There are major studies on this matter of testimony, available in books of Islamic shari`a (law), which you can simply look up for further information. Yet, those who want to pick holes in the Islamic view towards women, never refer to these requirements, regarding men witnesses. They only focus on women!

    They simply neglect the other legal cases, in which the testimony if men are not taken, but only women are to give it before courts. Such as cases of proving children's paternity or maternity if it is a disputed matter. A simple reason for this example is that it is not common for men to stay in a room, where there is a woman who has just given birth and witness what happens with the baby.

    I hope the foregoing clarifies the matter. Thank you

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  11. And the favourite card used by critisizers of islam.

    {And slay them wherever you find them} 2:191

    Before i post it here is a link to authentic translations of the Quran.
    Even though translations of the Quran never do justice simply because the arabic and english language differ on so many levels.

    (2:190) And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight against you but do not commit aggression because AIIah does not like aggressors.

    A brief scholarly explanation to that goes as follows:

    The believers are asked to fight those who hindered their efforts in the cause of God, and acted with hostility towards them merely because they sought to fashion human life according to the revealed guidance of God. Earlier, when they were weak and scattered, the Muslims were asked merely to preach and be patient with the wrongful repression meted out to them by their opponents. However, now that a small city state had been established in Madina they were commanded for the first time to unsheathe their swords against those who had resorted to armed hostility against their movement of reform. It was some time after this injunction that the Battle of Badr took place, to be followed by several other battles.
    *201. The believers are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those who were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to unscrupulous methods or to the indiscriminate killing and pillage which characterized the wars of the pre-Islamic era, the Age of Ignorance. The excesses alluded to in this verse are acts such as taking up arms against women and children, the old and the injured, mutilation of the dead bodies of the enemy, uncalled-for devastation through the destruction of fields and livestock, and other similar acts of injustice and brutality. In the Hadith all these acts have been prohibited. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary.

  12. And now lets go back to the actual verse you posted

    And slay them wherever you find them 2:191


    The actual verse goes as follows

    (2:191) Fight against them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out from where they drove you out. Though killing is bad. persecution is worse than killing . Do not fight against them near the Masjid Haram unless they attack you there.


    Here the word fitnah is used in the sense of 'persecution'. It refers to a situation whereby either a person or a group is subjected to harassment and intimidation for having accepted, as true, a set of ideas contrary to those currently held, and for striving to effect reforms in the existing order of society by preaching what is good and condemning what is wrong. Such a situation must be changed, if need be, by the force of arms.
    Bloodshed is bad, but when one group of people imposes its ideology and forcibly prevents others from accepting the truth, then it becomes guilty of an even more serious crime. In such circumstances, it is perfectly legitimate to remove that oppressive group by the force of arms.

    Notice the difference?

    Many people i debate with told me they should listen to my translation and not their translation.

    The obvious answer is their translation is meant to harm islams reputation and is unnapproved by muslim scholars.
    And maybe because a muslim offering his tranlation usually means its more authentic.
    The one thing a muslim would never do is change even a comma in the Quran let alone an entire verse and that is why the Quran stands unchanged since it was revealed.

    We try real hard to fix misconceptions and hatred thrown towards us but still get accused of distorting the truth.

    What can i say

  13. Theres a ton of other crap i will break down and correct later. peaaaace

  14. one more thing

    If you go ahead and read the next verse


    {{{{And if they attack you first (even in that sacred area), strike them (without any hesitation); this is the due punishment for such disbelievers. If, however, they desist from fighting (you should also do likewise), and know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful}}}}


    God, in whom the believers have faith, is forgiving and ready to pardon even the worst criminals and sinners after they have renounced their arrogant defiance towards Him. It is suggested that this attribute of God should be reflected in the behaviour of the believers as well. As the saying goes: 'Mould your morals according to the attributes of God.' Hence, Whenever the believers have to resort to armed conflict, they should do so not for the sake of quenching their thirst for venueance but in the cause of God's religion. Their conflict with any group should last only as long as that group resists the cause of God. As soon as it gives up this resistance hostility should cease.

  15. This is kind of interesting to point out.

    The strange admonishment of homosexual behaviour is that it only seems to mind when MEN do it. It is very clear in defining that it is male homosexuality that is the abomination. (26:165-6, 27:54-55, 29:28-29)
    This would seem to suggest that Allah hates gays, but he thinks that lesbians are the shit. I guess he was thinking ahead when making the male dominated culture of Muslims. If men are going to rule, then they are going to need a good source of entertainment (They would also need sole dominion over the remote, but they don't seem to touch on that in the Quran OR the Haddiths. Slight oversight sorry Allah)

    So is that what you would call an honest examination of islam?
    seriously dude lol?

    ok , i'll answer this one without even referring to notable scholars answers on this matter.

    1st , in islam a man is told to cover certain parts of his body from everyone except his wife.
    And that is starting from the knee going up towards the hips.(belt height)
    Meaning not to show this to men or women.

    A woman however is different.

    A woman has to cover her hair and dress modestly from neck to ankles to wrists.
    This is towards everyone excluding her husband , children , parents, grandparents , sisters , brothers and uncles.

    However should a woman be in the presence of only women companions or friends she can dress less modestly but still cover from chest to knees.
    It is forbidden for a woman to expose her private areas to other women just as the case for men.

    Therefore you'r wierd analogy on islam that supposes lesbians are cool and gays are not
    is 100% NOT True.

    On topic polygamy is allowed in islam.

    A man can marry up to 4 wives IF and only IF he can treat all his wives fairly.
    If he cannot treat a second,third or fourth wife with equal measure he should stick to having 1 wife.

    Now suppose a man is married to 2 wives , it is strictly foridden to have both his wives in 1 bed.

    If the wives agreed they can live in the same house but each has to have her own bedroom and the act of sex is to be between the man and only 1 wife.

  16. These are common excuses for the terrible Quran. Women are considered less than men, if only because they are allowed to beat them by divine dictate. You ask why Muslims hate Jews and then point to ancient happenings??? What an excuse. I don't hate the english for ruining ancient scotland because I have no connection other than heritage to that. Muslims don't either. In the Haddiths Jews were tolerated until they refused to convert. That is not intolerant? Irrational? Hateful?

    What a terrible and morally bankrupt religion.

  17. - One in six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape, and 10% of sexual assault victims are men. (2004 National Crime Victimization Survey)

    - According to a report in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine, 28 % of US female veterans reported sexual assault during their careers, with consistent rates found across eras. (Women's eNews, 3/30/03).

    - In Colorado, 24% (1 in 4) of women and 6% (1 in 17) of men have experienced a completed or attempted sexual assault

    - Nearly three in four family violence victims in the U.S are female – 73%. (US Bureau of Justice, June 2005)

    - US Bureau of Justice found that family violence accounted for 11 to 33 percent of all violent crime from 1998 to 2002, depending on whether the source was victimization surveys or police data.

    - US Bureau of Justice also found that family violence remains under-reported. About two in five incidents were not reported to police from 1998 to 2002.

    - More than 50% of women in New Hampshire state and the area south of Seattle have experienced abuse. (NH Coalition Against Domestic and Sexual Violence, University of New Hampshire, and state authorities, 2007)

    -In Texas, over 185,000 incidents of domestic violence occurred during 2003

    - Domestic violence is the major cause of death and disability for European women aged 16 to 44 and accounts for more death and ill-health than cancer or traffic accidents. (reported by Amnesty International)

    - A survey by the General Union of Women and UNIFEM found that one in four married women in Syria are abused

    - A senior official announced a 20% increase in recorded incidents of domestic violence in Jordan in 2005 over the previous year—1,800 cases in 2005. (IRIN News, July 2006)

    - In Algeria, 7,400 women filed domestic violence complaints in 2005, up 1,555 from the total in 2004. Algeria has more than 30 safehouses throughout the capital. (AFP, December 2006)

    - Studies in the US, Israel, Canada, Australia, and South Africa found that 40-70% of female murder victims were killed by husbands or boyfriends. (World Health Organization)

    - In Australia, 42% of women who experienced violence by a partner were pregnant at the time of the violence and 20% experienced violence for the first time during pregnancy (ABS Women's Safety Survey, 1996)

    - A review of victim reports in 3 states in the US in 1992 revealed that 46% of rape victims under age 12 had a family relationship with the perpetrator, and 20% were raped by their fathers. (Bureau of Justice Statistics)

    - A random survey of 2,627 women and men conducted by the Los Angeles Times found that 27% of the women and 16% of the men had been incestuously abused as children (By Silence Betrayed, John Crewsdon, Little Brown, 1988).

    Morally bankrupt lol... right.

    Common excuses? You can blog but you'r not ready to debate , nice scholarly attitude.

    Even with that divine order , the statistics show that we are less aggresive towards women lol..

  18. Yes morally bankrupt. I didn't say that your religion was the ONLY morally bankrupt thing in the world, so showing how others are doing it too, does not excuse your religion.

    With your divine order you ARE more aggressive towards your OWN women.

    Honour killings, up to 94% spousal abuse in some fundamental countries (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey), acid attacks for women attending university.

    These things alone make it morally bankrupt. You admit the divine mandate, but yet defend it because others are mean to women as well?


    You defend FIGHTING against those who don't agree?

    The scripture that I posed was not the only place where KILLING Infidels (Kaffir) was mandated. The Quran is rife with such terrible instructions.

    You go on and on, about how these terrible things are justifiable.

    Just stop accepting them.


    Women are due the same voice as men.

    Women are due the same inheritance as men.

    Woman are NOT subject to your admonishment or judgment when they don't fill their "duties".

    Women don't BELONG to you, nor to anyone. They have no need to hide their faces or bodies just because it tempts men. That is their problem. If they are too weak to handle it, then THEY have issues.

    I am very ready to debate. I never dismissed you, nor did I insult you.

    Statistics are actually not on your side at all.

    You can rant, but you certainly aren't ready for facts.

  19. And quoting OTHER peoples violence doesn't excuse your own.

    I don't have to speak out about normal violence like the incidents that you speak of. There are laws for that. It is NOT socially acceptable.
    SO I don't need to bring it to public view.

    Religion IS acceptable, and it is your religion that not only allows this, but MANDATES it.


  20. After all that eloquent support of the Koran you are still the religion killing people all over the world... I don't see the Jew's blowing them selves up in the markets all over the world and killing innocent people just trying to buy food.

    I don't see the Christians or the Jews trying to kill cartoonist because they made a cartoon about God or Christ! And do you really believe that if you blow you self up God will give you 70 virgins in Heaven to obviously have an orgy with, mad sex in Heaven, really?, 70 women per man? And these women they have no say in this? Is that the heaven women have to look forward to? The be heading's, hands and feet chopped off, tongs cut out, noses cut off, this all sounds OK to you? Savage and primitive is all I can see..

  21. It IS savage and primitive, but no more than the bible. The only real difference is that they don't ignore parts of their bible that they don't like.